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Thread: The Köppen–Geiger climate classification made simpler (I hope so)

  1. #471
    Guild Adept acrosome's Avatar
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    Yes, I'm finding precipitation placement to be a challenge. I'm just never satisfied with it. I try using the Earth as an example, but other worlds are not Earth, y'know? Your tutorial gives great guidelines on a lot of things, but then when you all are modeling Earth to check your algorithms you are showing temperature and precipitation maps that are clearly contrary to the rules of thumb in the tutorials. But, I guess that allows wiggle room to make a world whatever you want, within limits?
    Last edited by acrosome; 04-12-2019 at 09:28 AM.

  2. #472
    Guild Artisan Charerg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
    Hi, All, I'm back.

    What is the functional difference between Charerg's GIMP script and AzureWings' Python script? Are they interchangeable- just different implementations?

    EDIT-- It looks like Charerg's uses Azelor's original six precipitation levels whereas AzureWings' uses eight? I don't see instructions anywhere for changing precipitation with altitude for eight categories. Are there any?

    Is one or the other now considered the "official" best solution by you three gurus? I ask because I see that AzureWings' has a link in the OP whereas Charerg's does not.
    AzureWings' script doesn't use any particular precipitation profile, you can configure it to use the 6-step precipitation levels (or however many you want, for that matter). The quickest way is probably directly modifying the script using Notepad++ (comment out the "pColorTableDefault" and replace it with this one, if you're using the same RGB values as in my GIMP script):

    pColorTableDefault = {(210, 200, 250):300.0, (190, 170, 240):150.0, (150, 130, 220):75.0, (90, 80, 160):37.5, (240, 235, 160):17.5, (235, 0, 140):5.0}
    The above should be fairly self-explanatory, it contains the RGB value of a given precipitation level, and the corresponding avg. precipitation in millimetres for that level (if you're using different RGB values, you may need to modify the values to match). I also posted some instructions about using the script that might be helpful.


    The output from both my earlier GIMP script and AzureWings' script should be about the same, but the latter is preferable since it's more flexible in the sense that you can set up custom temperature and/or precipitation profiles easily, and it isn't tied to any particular program or a version (for example, I use GIMP 2.10 nowadays, so I can't use my prior script because that was made for 2.8 ).


    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
    Yes, I'm finding precipitation placement to be a challenge. I'm just never satisfied with it. I try using the Earth as an example, but other worlds are not Earth, y'know? Your tutorial gives great guidelines on a lot of things, but then when you all are modeling Earth to check your algorithms you are showing temperature and precipitation maps that are clearly contrary to the rules of thumb in the tutorials. But, I guess that allows wiggle room to make a world whatever you want, within limits?
    There is always a lot of guesswork when creating a fictional world, though there are certainly more plausible and less plausible interpretations. Climates do have a fairly predictable overall pattern if you make the basic assumptions of a similar rotation rate and axial tilt (and therefore similar atmospheric circulation) to Earth. I might add that probably the majority of things in the Earth-based temp and precipitation maps that appear to contradict the rules of thumb given in the tutorial are only seemingly contradictory. If you have any particular examples of areas that feel off or appear contradictory that would be great, because that would help in identifying some areas or phenomena that might need extra instructions. Hey, who knows, maybe we'll eventually manage to come up with something a bit more thorough when it comes to instructions for the precipitation maps .

    Oh, and any thoughts of "making a world whatever I want" are clearly heretical, my errand child. Listen to the great Azélor: science and formulae are the way. Trust in the method, my child, and pray for enlightenment. After all, you wouldn't want the climate inquisition to get you, now would you?
    Last edited by Charerg; 04-12-2019 at 01:56 PM.

  3. #473
    Guild Adept acrosome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charerg View Post
    Oh, and any thoughts of "making a world whatever I want" are clearly heretical, my errand child. Listen to the great Azélor: science and formulae are the way. Trust in the method, my child, and pray for enlightenment. After all, you wouldn't want the climate inquisition to get you, now would you?
    Oh, High Priest Charerg, help me to overcome my error! I abase myself before the altar of the Great God Formulae! I shall henceforth live The Method truly, unburdened by heretical thought!

    More seriously, don't get me wrong- this all rocks, and is a very creative way to generate climates. But Earth's climate has changed dramatically many, many times. Limiting myself to only recent history off the top of my head I can list the Saharan Savannah and the Mammoth Steppe as well-known examples. That's all I was talking about- e.g. that I could nudge things toward a large desert if I wanted one... or not... by where I place the rains.

    Thanks for the info- I'll use the Python script.

    I may shortly ask for input on my climate project, but I was unhappy with my recent maps and am now re-doing them more diligently. I think I tried to rush through some foundational steps to get to the "good stuff" more quickly, and suffered for it, so I'm at it again. On the positive side, I get faster at this every time I re-start...
    Last edited by acrosome; 04-13-2019 at 09:01 PM.

  4. #474
    Guild Adept acrosome's Avatar
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    How do you merge the precipitation layers in Gimp? Some precipitation overlaps, so they have to "add" somehow, right?

  5. #475
    Guild Artisan Charerg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
    How do you merge the precipitation layers in Gimp? Some precipitation overlaps, so they have to "add" somehow, right?
    I don't think they can be easily merged if you made the various influences in separate layers. So you'll probably have to do that manually, pretty much.

    Although I guess it would be possible to set up the precipitation levels with a colour scheme that would make adding them on top of each other possible, but then we'd need many more levels and even intervals. Right now, the interval between levels varies from 10 mm for the lowest layer (0-10) to 100 mm for the second highest (100-200). Given that the interval varies this much, it's not really possible to easily merge the levels from two separate layers without messing things up.

  6. #476
    Guild Adept acrosome's Avatar
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    Ah, ok. Thanks.

  7. #477

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    azelor i have a bit of a problem with interpreting the rules you have in 5.1 zone of temperature. you state that hot currents have no impact in summer since the land is hotter than water and no impact between the tropics, however in the maps you drew you had hot currents drawn as far north as northern Scandinavia in the middle of summer and had hot currents consistently throughout the tropics. is it that you drew them anyway for demonstration purposes but later on in your system it becomes irreverent?

  8. #478
    Guild Grand Master Azélor's Avatar
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    How do you merge the precipitation layers in Gimp? Some precipitation overlaps, so they have to "add" somehow, right?
    I think it work in photohop by using the multiply mode on the layers. Isn't there something similar in Gimp?


    azelor i have a bit of a problem with interpreting the rules you have in 5.1 zone of temperature. you state that hot currents have no impact in summer since the land is hotter than water and no impact between the tropics, however in the maps you drew you had hot currents drawn as far north as northern Scandinavia in the middle of summer and had hot currents consistently throughout the tropics. is it that you drew them anyway for demonstration purposes but later on in your system it becomes irreverent?
    I drew the current mostly based on their actual temperatures and also somewhat compared to the surrounding temperature.
    We could say that I classified them according to what would make the model work best, even if that is cheating a bit.

  9. #479

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    your rules for how hot current influences work are as follows

    Hot current (red) : areas affected by winds blowing from a hot current. Hot current have no impact in summer since the land is hotter than the water and it’s considered normal instead.
    Also, they have no impact between the tropics either.
    but you also made these 2 maps to demonstrat the effect

    https://www.cartographersguild.com/a...075790&thumb=1

    https://www.cartographersguild.com/a...075817&thumb=1

    in these 2 maps you have drawn hot influences in both summer and in the tropics where you stated it has no effect, which is correct your maps or your rules? or are we suppose to draw the influences anyway and the guide you have created will simply make hot influences drawn in the summer and tropics have no effect later on in the guide?

    edit, i just read ahead on the guide and i can answer this question for myself, yes your guide does show how even if you draw the hot current influinces in summer and in the tropics it doesent actually effect the temperature map
    Last edited by arch-fiend; 04-15-2019 at 06:32 PM.

  10. #480

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    First off, I want to thank Azelor, Charerg and Azure for their work in this tutorial. So helpful! Can't believe how manageable this makes climate "generation" and just generally helped me understand how the whole system works together.

    I'm posting because I'm having some trouble with the pressure systems. I just can't seem to wrap my head around the exact way that they interact with each other to create precipitation. I've tried a couple of times now, and I just feel like eventually I just end up grasping at straws, guessing how it ends up, not actually following the flow of things.

    I've attached two very rudimentary combined pressure/temporary wet maps to illustrate my process. I can't really pinpoint any concrete problem areas, but they show how confused it all gets. There's no elevation yet, just to make it a bit easier. I guess my question is... Are there any places you guys can identify where I've completely screwed up? I'm kind of doubtful as to whether I've placed overland HP systems correctly, for example.

    The "+" shaped continent in the center is kind of emblematic of the problem, it gets funky desert areas on the tips of each peninsula, where I kind of feel like it should be wet all year round pretty much.

    Any help would be much appreciated!!

    Continents continents.png

    January janpressure_wet.png

    July julypressure_wet.png

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