Toponomy, or How to Name Places!

[mmmmmpig]

I am going to go on a slightly tangential rant for a moment I could not find an appropriate thread and don't think this deserves its own thread as much as it deserves a thread hijack...

As a consistent reader of fantasy and an off and on gamer, I think it is incumbent upon the community at large to stop the dire place names convention. No more "Cliffs of Despair" or "Swamp of Tears" or "Graggy Hills of Doomy Doom!" or "Dark Scary Forest Don't Go In There" or "The Plot Point Hills of Dread."

I get tired of seeing places like the aforementioned "the Dark Forest." In the "real world" places are named by the people who live and use the areas (even if it is a hard and dangerous life). No one wants to live in the "Dire Marsh." The people who do scrabble out a living in or near that swamp would not give it such an imposing name.

[Ascension]

"Craggy hills of doomy doom" is awesome! I gotta use that, if but only once

[NeonKnight]

I am going to go on a slightly tangential rant for a moment I could not find an appropriate thread and don't think this deserves its own thread as much as it deserves a thread hijack...

As a consistent reader of fantasy and an off and on gamer, I think it is incumbent upon the community at large to stop the dire place names convention. No more "Cliffs of Despair" or "Swamp of Tears" or "Graggy Hills of Doomy Doom!" or "Dark Scary Forest Don't Go In There" or "The Plot Point Hills of Dread."

I get tired of seeing places like the aforementioned "the Dark Forest." In the "real world" places are named by the people who live and use the areas (even if it is a hard and dangerous life). No one wants to live in the "Dire Marsh." The people who do scrabble out a living in or near that swamp would not give it such an imposing name.

Just cause I can

http://www.destination360.com/europe...y/black-forest

The History, of HOW the Black Forest Got it's Name.

So, name like TANGLE WOOD or DENSE SWAMP, are certainly not as 'scary' as DEATH WOOD or DIRE SWAMP or anything, but they ARE Evocative, and how people go about naming places.

Another example (with pictures even), is the SLEEPING GIANT PROVINCIAL PARK in Ontario, Canada, so named because an island looks like a sleeping giant.

In fact, if you do a Google search for images on Sleeping Giant Mountian, we have LOTS of mountains around the world that is named exactly that:

http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en...title&resnum=4

[altasilvapuer]

[...]
In fact, if you do a Google search for images on Sleeping Giant Mountian, we have LOTS of mountains around the world that is named exactly that:

http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en...title&resnum=4

From my relatives' house in Stuyvesant, NY (near Hudson, etc; roughly 30-45 minutes south of Albany), you can see to the Southwest the very tip of the Catskill Mountain range - specifically three peaks of it. The three peaks are sometimes referred to as "Rip Van Winkle," after the legend of the man who slept for 100 years. From the right angle (at about which their house sits, in fact), the three peaks form what looks like a man's brow, nose, and chin.

I think I have a picture on my harddrive of it; I'll see if I can find it.
I thought I had a picture of it, but I can't find any from the right angle that are very clear. A quick internet search found this one, though: http://rogerkenner.ca/Bike/Nyc00/Bik...knyc00_129.jpg which, oddly enough, appears to be quite near my relative's house. Unless I miss my reckoning, they're off to the right a couple miles at most.

The mounts in question are the three close to each other in the center. The angle's not quite right, but that's them.

-asp

[Pegasos989]

While others have already mentioned that English, German, Japanese, etc. names form as they do, I'll add Finnish names to that list.

Last names are generally Finnish words with "nen" or "lä/la" added in the end. "Lä/la" means "a place where something is". For example, a name Seppälä would mean "A place in which you can find seppä" (And seppä means "smith"). This is the list of 9 most common last names in Finland at the moment.

1: Virtanen (Virta means "stream")
2: Korhonen (Korho means "dry hay" though it is old word. Had to look it up.)
3: Nieminen (Niemi means "peninsula")
4: Mäkinen (Mäki means "hill" or "ascent")
4: Mäkelä (Also based on word mäki. "A place where is a hill")
5: Hämäläinen (Means "someone from Häme" which is a place, named after Hämä, a pagan goddess whose name also apparently means "land" though is so old word that it took some serious googling to find out)
6: Laine (Laine means "wave")
7: Koskinen (Koski means "rapid")
8: Heikkinen (Heikki is a common first name. It is Finnish version of Heinrik, which comes from german Haimrich, which... I don't know.)
9: Järvinen (Järvi means "lake")

You see a pattern? Yes, it's that simple. Pick pretty much any old finnish word meaning some pagan deity or something nature or agriculture related, add "nen" to the end and the chances are it is someone's last name.



The place names are a bit more complex to explain but still simple.

This place where I live now is called Lehmihaka. Lehmä means "cow" and haka means both "hook" and a fence to keep something in some area. Lehmihaka means a fenced area in which you keep cows (kinda flattering, eh?). You can guess that there used to be a lot of cows in this area. The suburb in which Lehmihaka is is called "Havukoski", which is from Havu (branch of evergreen, twig) and Koski (rapid). Nearby is a rapid with evergreens on the shore.

This whole city is called Vantaa and I don't know if that means anything (probably) but before that, this was just called "Helsingin maalaispitäjä" as that means "countryside municipio of Helsinki (bigger city next to this one". The center of Vantaa is Tikkurila. Tikkuri is old finnish word for squirrel's hide. (and 'la' addition. "Place where are squirrelhides"). It was a common trading post when people used squirrels' hides as money.

[Ascension]

Now that's some great info there, Peg...very nice and thank you very much. I'll definitely be using this.

[Korrigan]

For those who'd like to use french as a basis for your toponymy, there are a few facts that are worth knowing (especially if you plan to give it a medieval feeling).

Lots of places are named (as in any language, I guess) after landmarks : rivers, hills,... or after what the place was used for in the first place.

For example, if you want to use landmarks :

- The french city of Bordeaux is named after the fact it is a coastal city. Bordeaux a contraction of "bord des eaux", which could be translated as "water side".
- The town of Liège is named after a small river that crossed it before it was "forced" underground, the river Légia.
- You can find a whole lot of places with names like Montrouge (red hill), Le Chesne ("chesne" is an old form of the word "chêne", which means "oak tree"),...

Places named after what they were used for :

- There's a neighborhood in the city I grew up in called La Bergerie (the sheepfold). Of course you won't find any sheep, but it's what it used to be.
- There are villages called La Forge (the forge), Vieux-Moulin (old mill),...

A lot of place are named using ancient words. This is what makes french medieval places sound "medieval"... You can use oldish versions of some words quite easily :

- The word "château" (castle) used to be "castel" (as in Castelnaudary, the new castle of Ary, or in Castelsarrasin, the Saracen castle)
- The word "royal" (related to the King) used to be "réal" (as in Montréal, the King's Hill)
- The word "nouveau" (new) used to be "nau" (like before, in Castelnaudary, which we can decompose as "castel nau d'Ary", the new castle of Ary)
- The word "libre" (free) used to be "franc" (as in Villefranche, free city)

People who named the places liked to show how new they were :

- Chateauneuf-du-Pape (Pope's new castle)
- Villeneuve-d'Ascq (the new city of Ascq)
- Neufchateau (new castle)
- Funilly enough, the "Pont Neuf" (new bridge) in Paris is the oldest one in the city

Of course, we also have more than a few names that come from other languages : latin, german, flemish, italian, spanish,...

[m2wester]

Not sure how that works in other countries, in Germany the endings of village and town names are often regional for various reasons.

One typical thing is that in borderregions or conquered regions, place names are derived from the original language, for example, in Eastern Germany, there are a lot of places that were originally slavic settlements and retain some features of those (-in, -ow, -itz, -leben [probably Germanized from -slav). The far north has some endings common with Skandinavian city names (-by, -holm).

Then, the spelling of the same thing very often depends on the local slang, eg -rode, -roda, -rath and -reuth all stem from "Rodung" (deforestation), -rode is typical for north Germany, -roda east Germany, -reuth Bavaria, -rath Rhineland. Other example: -um in northern Germany, -heim elsewhere (Heim=home). In some cases a word might just be typical for a region (-wig for market in old north German).

In most maps, this shouldn't play much of a role because you won't need enough names for it to matter, but in a detailed map of a large enough empire, I believe this is something to keep in mind, especially if you want to give different regions an own flair.


I'd also like to mention that while Fantasy names are often pretty tacky, Dark Forest is perfectly fine (Apart from the "Schwarzwald" - Blackwood - there's also a German town called "Finsterwalde" - Darkwood) and in cases where the location lives up to its name, I wouldn't object a Dire Swamp either - if there's just a couple of hermits living in it and the neighbours fear going near, they might well call it the Dire Swamp.

[wisemoon]

While others have already mentioned that English, German, Japanese, etc. names form as they do, I'll add Finnish names to that list.<clip excellent post for space>

I just wanted to add (for those few who may not know) that J.R.R. Tolkien based his Elvish Quenya language on Finnish. So, if you wanted a Tolkien-ish feel without completely ripping him off, using Finnish as a base would probably do it.

Also...someone mentioned Holly Lisle's _Create a Language Clinic_, and I just wanted to add my props to that mention. Holly Lisle's writing instruction materials are all very well thought-out, and pretty clearly written. She makes no claim to "Ultimate Writing Technique Mystical TRUTH" but just gives her own methods as succinctly as possible. So if you are making maps for Roleplaying Games (which involve story) or for your own fiction, I highly recommend you give her site a look-over. She has a lot of stuff that totally free, as well as more detailed instruction that costs money. And even the stuff that you pay for has a range--some is very cheap for the amount of information she gives, and there are even more extensive works that cost more.

And no--I am not getting paid for this or compensated in any other way (LOL). I have many of her "Clinics" though, and have also taken her "How to Think Sideways" course. Just thought I'd throw a plug out there for her, since I've gotten a lot out of her work.

wisemoon

[Steel General]

"Dark Scary Forest Don't Go In There" - That got a good old chuckle out of me.