Noodler's - is it worth it?

[MapMappingMapped]

I've been practicing watercolour maps for quite a while. But now I want to get serious about it, and I need to eliminate a few problems. First is that my ink runs under paint, so I need to make a messy complicated process, which can end badly. I'm aware that watercolorists here use ink first, then paint - and the maps they make! The ink could be on top for all we know (Baerald and Nopkin )
I heard that Noodlers black ink does the job. If you've used it would you say it does? And what pens would you use it with?
Thank you!

[Falconius]

India inks are (I think) all water proof, which should show through water colours just fine. I'd imagine if there is enough paint to make the lines look dusty or unclear one would just reline them after painting.

[bmmcwhirt]

I've been practicing watercolour maps for quite a while. But now I want to get serious about it, and I need to eliminate a few problems. First is that my ink runs under paint, so I need to make a messy complicated process, which can end badly. I'm aware that watercolorists here use ink first, then paint - and the maps they make! The ink could be on top for all we know (Baerald and Nopkin )
I heard that Noodlers black ink does the job. If you've used it would you say it does? And what pens would you use it with?
Thank you!

Here is an entire review of many water-proof and water-resistant inks. https://www.jetpens.com/blog/the-bes...en-inks/pt/829

It's not an exhaustive list as I'm sure they only include inks they sell but it's a good list with many colors.

Keep in mind that they type of pen you use is going to dictate what inks you use.

If you are using a classic metal dip pen you want a thicker ink that will hold onto the nib and flow only as you write. These are usually pigmented inks. Dye bases inks will be too think and watery and you will just lay down all the ink from your nib in one ot two strokes. If you don't mind using that much ink and the repetitive dipping then dye inks are fine with a metal dip pen.

If you are using a glass dip pen you can use just about any ink you want that wont permanently stick to the glass. Pigment inks may need to be thinned but can be used.

If you are using a fountain pen stick with only water based dye inks, anything else will clog up the nib and feed system. You cannot thin out pigment inks to make them safe so do not try. Also if your using a vintage fountain pen you will want to do some research on the inks you use as some newer fancy boutique inks like Noodlers have additives that can damage the ink sacks and other materials in vintage pens but newer modern pens will be fine with almost all fountain pen friendly inks.

If you use a brush then you can pretty much use anything you want.

If you decide to go with a carbon ink just get a large bottle of Chinese ink. This is one instance where Chinese is actually better as they have been making this kind of ink longer than any other country has been writing.

If you decide to go with Noodlers then you can contact Nathan and see if you can guy a large bottle direct. He's been known to sell Noodlers Black and Heart of Darkness in liter and gallon jugs to artists.

[ThomasR]

I own a large collection of Noodler's Inks and they are not as thick as india ink and are not as waterproof. Their main quality is their stability, the bulletproof won't change. About the black, it depends on the black you use (black, zhivago, x-feather, borealis, dark matter, black mocassin ...). They're perfect for brush use but, after some experiment, I'd recommend not using water on them.

[MistyBeee]

I personally used to draw with Noodler's black ("catfish") for my watercolors and never experienced any issue with it : the ink is not super pigmented (it can looks greyish instead of black) but resists well if you let it dry completely before adding water. However, keep in mind that every ink will behave differently depending on the paper you use : 'can be resistent on watercolor 200g paper, and not in machine paper, etc.
Pens are a matter of taste. For my Noodler's inks I use F and EF Preppy which are very cheap and ugly, but with a very pleasant nib for my taste.

'must say I don't use ink & fountain pens anymore, since for watercolor they request a long time to dry, which is not compatible with the "under 30min" small subjects I use to paint ^^. A good complement or alternative to check is fineliners : Copic and Micron pens are 100% waterproof with 0 surprise and 0 risk, dry super fast and are very durable. The stroke is less "alive" than traditional nibs/pens, but effective and handy, especially for tiny details on maps.

[ThomasR]

I personally used to draw with Noodler's black ("catfish") for my watercolors and never experienced any issue with it : the ink is not super pigmented (it can looks greyish instead of black) but resists well if you let it dry completely before adding water. However, keep in mind that every ink will behave differently depending on the paper you use : 'can be resistent on watercolor 200g paper, and not in machine paper, etc.
Pens are a matter of taste. For my Noodler's inks I use F and EF Preppy which are very cheap and ugly, but with a very pleasant nib for my taste.

'must say I don't use ink & fountain pens anymore, since for watercolor they request a long time to dry, which is not compatible with the "under 30min" small subjects I use to paint ^^. A good complement or alternative to check is fineliners : Copic and Micron pens are 100% waterproof with 0 surprise and 0 risk, dry super fast and are very durable. The stroke is less "alive" than traditional nibs/pens, but effective and handy, especially for tiny details on maps.

Good to know, thanks Beee. My main problem with Noodler's was the drying. I personnaly use a TWSBI with fine or extrafine nib but it was more for writing purpose than drawing ad you are right, all archival ink pens work wonders (I have a preference for Ecco pigment Faber-Castell because of tehir handling).

[MapMappingMapped]

India inks are (I think) all water proof, which should show through water colours just fine. I'd imagine if there is enough paint to make the lines look dusty or unclear one would just reline them after painting.

Hey Falconius, I own Jackson's Indian ink, and it's more resistant than some ink I'd used before (it was contained in microns I found out were used copies) It kind of fades under the paint though, and sometimes the ink breaks away into a flower when you apply several washes of paints. It's kind of grey when it's done, and relining is kind of a pain (for me at least), since if you miss one stroke you get a huge fat line that thins back to normal again..

Here is an entire review of many water-proof and water-resistant inks. https://www.jetpens.com/blog/the-bes...en-inks/pt/829

It's not an exhaustive list as I'm sure they only include inks they sell but it's a good list with many colors.

Keep in mind that they type of pen you use is going to dictate what inks you use.

If you are using a classic metal dip pen you want a thicker ink that will hold onto the nib and flow only as you write. These are usually pigmented inks. Dye bases inks will be too think and watery and you will just lay down all the ink from your nib in one ot two strokes. If you don't mind using that much ink and the repetitive dipping then dye inks are fine with a metal dip pen.

If you are using a glass dip pen you can use just about any ink you want that wont permanently stick to the glass. Pigment inks may need to be thinned but can be used.

If you are using a fountain pen stick with only water based dye inks, anything else will clog up the nib and feed system. You cannot thin out pigment inks to make them safe so do not try. Also if your using a vintage fountain pen you will want to do some research on the inks you use as some newer fancy boutique inks like Noodlers have additives that can damage the ink sacks and other materials in vintage pens but newer modern pens will be fine with almost all fountain pen friendly inks.

If you use a brush then you can pretty much use anything you want.

If you decide to go with a carbon ink just get a large bottle of Chinese ink. This is one instance where Chinese is actually better as they have been making this kind of ink longer than any other country has been writing.

If you decide to go with Noodlers then you can contact Nathan and see if you can guy a large bottle direct. He's been known to sell Noodlers Black and Heart of Darkness in liter and gallon jugs to artists.

Thanks for replying and the detailed advice! I use micron pens, which I refill over and over (with Jackson's India ink so far), though I am purchasing dip pens for labels and some other stuff. Thanks for that link! And believe it or not, I've barely heard of Chinese ink on the art market before...

I own a large collection of Noodler's Inks and they are not as thick as india ink and are not as waterproof. Their main quality is their stability, the bulletproof won't change. About the black, it depends on the black you use (black, zhivago, x-feather, borealis, dark matter, black mocassin ...). They're perfect for brush use but, after some experiment, I'd recommend not using water on them.

That's a lot of blacks!

I personally used to draw with Noodler's black ("catfish") for my watercolors and never experienced any issue with it : the ink is not super pigmented (it can looks greyish instead of black) but resists well if you let it dry completely before adding water. However, keep in mind that every ink will behave differently depending on the paper you use : 'can be resistent on watercolor 200g paper, and not in machine paper, etc.
Pens are a matter of taste. For my Noodler's inks I use F and EF Preppy which are very cheap and ugly, but with a very pleasant nib for my taste.

'must say I don't use ink & fountain pens anymore, since for watercolor they request a long time to dry, which is not compatible with the "under 30min" small subjects I use to paint ^^. A good complement or alternative to check is fineliners : Copic and Micron pens are 100% waterproof with 0 surprise and 0 risk, dry super fast and are very durable. The stroke is less "alive" than traditional nibs/pens, but effective and handy, especially for tiny details on maps.

I use microns, though fake copies at that (I'm looking to buy them again, to compare) with Jackson's India ink. Have you used that one before? It's quite cheap but I think it's kind of weak, as it gradually loses colour under paint.
FrancescaBaerald (I think) sometimes use brown ink for the linework, and the maps are nice and clear... (Correct me if she doesn't ). I wouldn't buy brown, just yet. By the way, how much time do you think It would take for ink to dry completely?
A lot of cheap pens turn out to be quite good - I have a fountain pen which I can't even remember where I got from and I've grown attached to. It's really comfy and nice, though if you shake it it splashes like an elephant!

Good to know, thanks Beee. My main problem with Noodler's was the drying. I personnaly use a TWSBI with fine or extrafine nib but it was more for writing purpose than drawing ad you are right, all archival ink pens work wonders (I have a preference for Ecco pigment Faber-Castell because of tehir handling).

I'll try those out! I can't say I've ever used archival inks, since my micron were fake copies...
You guys gave me a lot to think about! Thanks!

[Falconius]

Hey Falconius, I own Jackson's Indian ink, and it's more resistant than some ink I'd used before (it was contained in microns I found out were used copies) It kind of fades under the paint though, and sometimes the ink breaks away into a flower when you apply several washes of paints. It's kind of grey when it's done, and relining is kind of a pain (for me at least), since if you miss one stroke you get a huge fat line that thins back to normal again..

Ive only tested Speedball and Rapidograph India ink under heavily wetted conditions, they both seem totally permanent. However I wasn't water colouring them, I was either trying washes with the same ink or aging the paper. So it may be if they get wet over and over and over again they behave, or the paper behaves, differently. I think that relining is probably a necessary evil no matter what you find because some of the pigment is going to end up over the line and if it's a light pigment is going to make it look chalky.

[MistyBeee]

Good to know, thanks Beee. My main problem with Noodler's was the drying. I personnaly use a TWSBI with fine or extrafine nib but it was more for writing purpose than drawing ad you are right, all archival ink pens work wonders (I have a preference for Ecco pigment Faber-Castell because of tehir handling).

It's not easy to find a good fountain pen to draw, as you can't really experiment them and they're often expensive, especially the self-filled ones, and what works for writing is not always optimal for drawing... It's a matter of chance ! I often read the Lamy are great for drawing, and I'm always tempted ^^

I use microns, though fake copies at that (I'm looking to buy them again, to compare) with Jackson's India ink. Have you used that one before? It's quite cheap but I think it's kind of weak, as it gradually loses colour under paint.
FrancescaBaerald (I think) sometimes use brown ink for the linework, and the maps are nice and clear... (Correct me if she doesn't ). I wouldn't buy brown, just yet. By the way, how much time do you think It would take for ink to dry completely?
A lot of cheap pens turn out to be quite good - I have a fountain pen which I can't even remember where I got from and I've grown attached to. It's really comfy and nice, though if you shake it it splashes like an elephant!

I'm not really friend with any kind of indian ink to be honest, since it's not fluid enough for my taste, make the nibs less durable even with a good cleaning and the line are often a little 'shiny' even when dry. And here again, suuuuper long to dry, way more than Noodler's ink. However I never experienced Jackson's India ink, the one I use is Winsor & Newton (totally waterproof, long to dry).
For the Noodler's ink drying time : no answer possible, as it depends on the paper, nib size, the stroke itself and pressure you used, and also the weather and season (I swear, but if you're familiar with watercolor, you probably already noticed this ^^). When I'm working on something important where I can't afford mistakes, a good way is to have a second sheet of the same paper, draw a series of random strokes on it and test there before touching the "real" drawing. However I would say in "normal" conditions (not too hot, not too cold, in my super dry house...) + thin fountain pen + my usual likework (my usual ink + watercolors drawings on IG for example), 10 minutes if I'm adventurous, 30 minutes to be very sure, 2 hours if I'm paranoid, 1 night if in panic to the point I can't even remember my name .
Jokes appart, 10 to 15 minutes are usually ok.
Edit : Oh, and yes, she does ! But I have no clue about what she uses. Hmm... Probably she won't bite if someone dare to message her to ask ^^

[MapMappingMapped]

Ive only tested Speedball and Rapidograph India ink under heavily wetted conditions, they both seem totally permanent. However I wasn't water colouring them, I was either trying washes with the same ink or aging the paper. So it may be if they get wet over and over and over again they behave, or the paper behaves, differently. I think that relining is probably a necessary evil no matter what you find because some of the pigment is going to end up over the line and if it's a light pigment is going to make it look chalky.

I think Jackson's must be a good deal weaker then, but no surprise since it's so cheap. Hmm, I guess you're right about the relining. Perhaps if I use much a thinner pen when doing so it will look better.

It's not easy to find a good fountain pen to draw, as you can't really experiment them and they're often expensive, especially the self-filled ones, and what works for writing is not always optimal for drawing... It's a matter of chance ! I often read the Lamy are great for drawing, and I'm always tempted ^^



I'm not really friend with any kind of indian ink to be honest, since it's not fluid enough for my taste, make the nibs less durable even with a good cleaning and the line are often a little 'shiny' even when dry. And here again, suuuuper long to dry, way more than Noodler's ink. However I never experienced Jackson's India ink, the one I use is Winsor & Newton (totally waterproof, long to dry).
For the Noodler's ink drying time : no answer possible, as it depends on the paper, nib size, the stroke itself and pressure you used, and also the weather and season (I swear, but if you're familiar with watercolor, you probably already noticed this ^^). When I'm working on something important where I can't afford mistakes, a good way is to have a second sheet of the same paper, draw a series of random strokes on it and test there before touching the "real" drawing. However I would say in "normal" conditions (not too hot, not too cold, in my super dry house...) + thin fountain pen + my usual likework (my usual ink + watercolors drawings on IG for example), 10 minutes if I'm adventurous, 30 minutes to be very sure, 2 hours if I'm paranoid, 1 night if in panic to the point I can't even remember my name .
Jokes appart, 10 to 15 minutes are usually ok.
Edit : Oh, and yes, she does ! But I have no clue about what she uses. Hmm... Probably she won't bite if someone dare to message her to ask ^^

I think she did tell us in one of her first posts, but I'm not sure if she used the ink as a wash or for the lineart: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0026439C4
It's linked with a few other details here -
https://cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=34798
I'm pretty sure I'll buy that ink, there's many stores that sell it at surprisingly low prices. Lol, I've got a full list of Baerald-used items I've got to order!
I made a rough drawing yesterday, and waited for about an hour before painting on it, and it was okay, as in it showed through, though it was foggy and blurred (but not decomposed). I'll make more experiments with the Liquitex acrylic ink too, when I get it. I do wonder if using a hairdryer on ink as some arists do on paint would have the same effect? I might try that today with the Jackson india ink..
Thanks all!