Twin River City [WIP]

[MistyBeee]

Hehehe, yeah that is true. Fantasy cartography is quite a journey that keeps going.
Well, I think you are lucky to have already found a drawing tablet for the more precise lineart(I remember you commenting about a wacom>?). I am yet to save up for one, my mouse is way too imprecise sadly. I can't wait!!
I do like drawing certain maps by pencil or pen. But certain things I really and I mean really do not like drawing a thousand of, trees being one of them. So, I do create tree brushes quite often and unique stuff. Although I do get what you are saying.

I started with a Wacom Intuos 2 probably in... 2003 or 2004 ? To be absolutely, totally honest with you, I never was able to overcome totally the hand/brain dissociation : every drawing was a pain, and not that much better than what I did with my mouse before. If you drew this map with just a mouse, so let me tell you my complete admiration o_o
In 2009 I had still the same problem with my non-connecting brain for the tablet, but the best husband ever came to rescue and made the best Christmas gift ever : a Wacom Cintiq. It was a big bet, because a Wacom Cintiq is a lot of money, but it was magical and solved instantanely my problem. In just a few weeks I made more progress than in one year with my old Intuos. But I insist on the fact that it's just me : most of people don't have trouble with that dissociation, so don't be afraid ^^'. As you saw my progress on the picture earlier today, you saw the 2009-2010 enhancement and understand what I mean
For trees... I don't use brush for them since as you may know Photoshop will make them overlapped. For some styles where I can draw trees with an opaque color/background (so mostly black/white maps, but I think I never posted this specific style on the map yet) I use the clone stamp tool as a time saver, but I don't like to replicate elements, so it's something I use less and less now... So... I draw them individually almost all the time now, as you can see on Middle Earth, Tamriel and my other maps. As I always say : a forest day is a good day for an audiobook (A Jules Verne for Middle Earth, and Robin Hobb for Tamriel, I think ? ^^).

Can I ask one more question, it is actually one I really wish I could put my finger on. Like with continent maps, how do you structure your layers? And what modes do you tend to use to get your coloring consistent. I have had mixed success in that regard.
Like example:
Top=Lineart layer (mulitply? Normal?)
Layer= This layer(that mode)
...
...
Bottom layer(that mode)

I would really appreciate it a great deal if you can point me in a good direction regarding that.

Have a lovely day!

Well... Every project is different, but let's see if I can help. Just remember there is no "perfect method" : the perfect method is the one that works for you

Layers organisation (to read from the bottom, as you know !) :

• Late edits :
  
  • Texture effects (splatters, dirty edges, etc. ; low opacity)
  • Color ajustment (not always required, but can be great for general harmonization ; always subtle)
  • Last details (normal opacity 100% : very precise edits and color touches, rare super strong specular lights, and sometimes snow, because it's better when over linework ; sometimes this layer is just 3 white dots only !)
• Ornaments folder (with roughly same organisation than Map folder : labels > linework > shadow* > color*) :
  
  • Title folder
  • Border folder
• Map folder + mask for areas covered by ornaments
  
  • Labels folder (including calligraphy if needed, and a background layer for the label outlines)
  • Line work folder ; I tend to use many layers for start and merge them before color. When several layers (usually each with a mask : I'm an extremist of non-destructive methods (probably from my years as webdesigner) and it's useful when a client asks to move an illustration at the last moment ^^) :
    
    • Illustrations
    • Forests
    • Grasslands/deserts/swamps
    • Mountains
    • Rivers
  • Color, light & Shadow folder :
    
    • Light
    • Shadow*
    • Color*
    • Often a low opacity light ajustment layer to make the landmass slightly lighter than sea
  • Water folder + mask for landmasses
    
    • Compass & rhumb lines
    • Sea color* (low opacity and color mode "color")
• Background layer

* are layers for which I sometimes use a color mode.
To be honest, my style is pretty simple and I use as few effects as I can : no color modes on folders, and even rarely on layers. The only elements for which I use color modes areshadow and Color layers, but even there it's not systematic (more often I do the color with a normal mode, just playing with a low opacity brush, or pen pressure on opacity). If needed, multiply, overlay and linear light are probably those I use the most ; however it depends on the background, ambiancy, etc... No magical recipe, just try-fail-retry. I noted that almost everytime I use a color mode, I lower the layer opacity for a more subtle effect ^^).



For Guild mods : don't hesitate to tell me if I should talk about this in private, or create a new thread instead of spamming this one, because I'm really not accustomed with forum usages in this sort of things, so sorry if I'm doing something wrong !

[XCali]

The Sambria one I referred to drawing the mountains with a mouse, it is this one: WIP I still have quite a ways to go with that map. (That map is actually the reason why I asked the layer and its modes question. Certain colors just doesn't want to come out the right way without me sacrificing the texture. All well, I will tackle it again sometime.)

In just a few weeks I made more progress than in one year with my old Intuos. But I insist on the fact that it's just me : most of people don't have trouble with that dissociation, so don't be afraid ^^'.
For trees... I don't use brush for them since as you may know Photoshop will make them overlapped. For some styles where I can draw trees with an opaque color/background (so mostly black/white maps, but I think I never posted this specific style on the map yet) I use the clone stamp tool as a time saver, but I don't like to replicate elements, so it's something I use less and less now... So... I draw them individually almost all the time now, as you can see on Middle Earth, Tamriel and my other maps. As I always say : a forest day is a good day for an audiobook (A Jules Verne for Middle Earth, and Robin Hobb for Tamriel, I think ? ^^).

Well, when I can save up for something like that, I certainly would want that instead of just a mouse. I'll try the cheaper Intuos first I think.

Anyway on to the brushes overlapping. Yeah, I saw that when I first started using GIMP. I got a great mountain brush that looked just right and then lo and behold it overlapped. I stopped using it and instead made my own mountains.
BUT it has to be said, there is a way to sidestep that. Because even with photoshop, I sometimes use free PS created brushes in gimp, so I know the basics are the same. The normal brush files all have one thing in common, GRAYSCALE image mode and FLATTEN IMAGE, with that you get to use any color as a base for it. However, the overlapping exists with those two modes in place. Now, I pen draw most of my assets and then use the selection tool to select all the white around the objects, grow the selection by one to take away any stray white edges. Cut the whole selection. Then I am left with just my assets. Now, when I create a brush for them I DO NOT select grayscale image mode NOR flatten image, and then save it as a brush file. So, when I use the brush it does not overlap at all like normally when the ink is passing through.
Case and point, check out my latest update on the City map with the trees, I did just that.
Given you have to draw them small enough and then make a large enough pool of them to ensure variety. It saves a looooad of time of drawing the exact thing same thing over and over again. It might be something to try, but nevertheless it is something that I do to help things along that doesn't need so many unique assets.

Pendrawn_Tree.png

color version (I save it just like that into an animated brush with quite a pool of variety.)
Colored_Tree.png

Well... Every project is different, but let's see if I can help. Just remember there is no "perfect method" : the perfect method is the one that works for you

Layers organisation (to read from the bottom, as you know !) :

• Late edits :
  
  • Texture effects (splatters, dirty edges, etc. ; low opacity)
  • Color ajustment (not always required, but can be great for general harmonization ; always subtle)
  • Last details (normal opacity 100% : very precise edits and color touches, rare super strong specular lights, and sometimes snow, because it's better when over linework ; sometimes this layer is just 3 white dots only !)
• Ornaments folder (with roughly same organisation than Map folder : labels > linework > shadow* > color*) :
  
  • Title folder
  • Border folder
• Map folder + mask for areas covered by ornaments
  
  • Labels folder (including calligraphy if needed, and a background layer for the label outlines)
  • Line work folder ; I tend to use many layers for start and merge them before color. When several layers (usually each with a mask : I'm an extremist of non-destructive methods (probably from my years as webdesigner) and it's useful when a client asks to move an illustration at the last moment ^^) :
    
    • Illustrations
    • Forests
    • Grasslands/deserts/swamps
    • Mountains
    • Rivers
  • Color, light & Shadow folder :
    
    • Light
    • Shadow*
    • Color*
    • Often a low opacity light ajustment layer to make the landmass slightly lighter than sea
  • Water folder + mask for landmasses
    
    • Compass & rhumb lines
    • Sea color* (low opacity and color mode "color")
• Background layer

* are layers for which I sometimes use a color mode.
To be honest, my style is pretty simple and I use as few effects as I can : no color modes on folders, and even rarely on layers. The only elements for which I use color modes areshadow and Color layers, but even there it's not systematic (more often I do the color with a normal mode, just playing with a low opacity brush, or pen pressure on opacity). If needed, multiply, overlay and linear light are probably those I use the most ; however it depends on the background, ambiancy, etc... No magical recipe, just try-fail-retry. I noted that almost everytime I use a color mode, I lower the layer opacity for a more subtle effect ^^).



For Guild mods : don't hesitate to tell me if I should talk about this in private, or create a new thread instead of spamming this one, because I'm really not accustomed with forum usages in this sort of things, so sorry if I'm doing something wrong !

I don't think there will be a problem with the discussion. This main thread is called Forum: Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique)
We help each other.

Anyway, about the layers. Wow, that is quite in detail, it will take some time to figure the setup out in my head. Thank you sooooo much for taking the time.
Okay so, you color beneath your line art, but is it on that layer where you work your texture into the image? Like example If I want a paper feeling to the image, but want to continue coloring it with the colors I choose without losing the paper feel, how do you do that?

[MistyBeee]

Anyway, about the layers. Wow, that is quite in detail, it will take some time to figure the setup out in my head. Thank you sooooo much for taking the time.
Okay so, you color beneath your line art, but is it on that layer where you work your texture into the image? Like example If I want a paper feeling to the image, but want to continue coloring it with the colors I choose without losing the paper feel, how do you do that?

Hmm... I think my approach is different. Maybe because I often work with watercolor, or because I always try to get inspiration from historic map makers and traditional techniques, instead of thinking about texture I think about transparency. My color layers are always low opacity, so don't hide the background textured layer : except rare case, it's the background which gives the texture to the whole map.
I made this for you : it's a simplified view of my current work on DarkSouls. The color itself is really quickly made to give a first idea of the color step to my client, so it's not perfect, but should illustrate our case here
ColorProcess_by_MistyBeee.jpg
Let's see, to read from bottom to top, as usual :

• Clean linework : as you can imagine, here are the dark lines from the linework ; 100% opacity, etc.
• Sketch : nothing useful here : just the blue lines from the first sketch
• Color folder :
  
  • Texture + light & shadow : As told before, it's a quickly made sampler so I was lazy here and put all on a single layer. With using the same chalk brush 50% opacity + pen pressure opacity, I suggested bricks, added some texture and, added light (coming from top right) just by picking the parchment color. The layer is 100% opacity, no effect, no color mode... just a few light brush strokes
  • Color base : This is just a fill layer>solid color + a mask ; any plain color 100% opacity do the job here. As you can see, this color layer is 100% opacity, but the 3th picture shows the mask which is painted with low opacity (here with a chalk brush 50% opacity + pen pressure opacity). A second pass with the same brush suggests the shadows (or shades ? I never know -_-). As it's low opacity, you can still see the paper texture below by transparency.
  • Opaque white square : This is just to help you see better the transparency of layers above
• Background : here is the parchment that is the support of the whole map : the "paper feel". I must confess it's not super textured, so not ideal for the demonstration ^^'

Now... even with low opacity, it's real that the paper texture is still slightly lower where color is. If I need more texture, 3 solutions :
- Just paint more texture on the "Texture + light & shadow" layer : it's what I usually do, using the same texture brush that I use for painting my background parchments.
- If the map is totally painted/covered with color, just playing with contrast or levels, make the background itself more textured.
- You can also duplicate the background parchment and put it on the top of your layers (or just after the linework). Make it grayscale only, play with the levels and contrasts to strengthen the texture, put the layer on Overlay mode and then ajust the light of this layer to make it as close as possible to a 50% grey, which is the exact tone that don't 'burn' the picture with overlay mode. I let it at 100% here to show you, but a lower opacity would be better :
PaperTexture_by_MistyBeee.jpg

[XCali]

Hmm... I think my approach is different. Maybe because I often work with watercolor, or because I always try to get inspiration from historic map makers and traditional techniques, instead of thinking about texture I think about transparency. My color layers are always low opacity, so don't hide the background textured layer : except rare case, it's the background which gives the texture to the whole map.

ColorProcess_by_MistyBeee.jpg
Let's see, to read from bottom to top, as usual :

• Clean linework : as you can imagine, here are the dark lines from the linework ; 100% opacity, etc.
• Sketch : nothing useful here : just the blue lines from the first sketch
• Color folder :
  
  • Texture + light & shadow : As told before, it's a quickly made sampler so I was lazy here and put all on a single layer. With using the same chalk brush 50% opacity + pen pressure opacity, I suggested bricks, added some texture and, added light (coming from top right) just by picking the parchment color. The layer is 100% opacity, no effect, no color mode... just a few light brush strokes
  • Color base : This is just a fill layer>solid color + a mask ; any plain color 100% opacity do the job here. As you can see, this color layer is 100% opacity, but the 3th picture shows the mask which is painted with low opacity (here with a chalk brush 50% opacity + pen pressure opacity). A second pass with the same brush suggests the shadows (or shades ? I never know -_-). As it's low opacity, you can still see the paper texture below by transparency.
  • Opaque white square : This is just to help you see better the transparency of layers above
• Background : here is the parchment that is the support of the whole map : the "paper feel". I must confess it's not super textured, so not ideal for the demonstration ^^'

Now... even with low opacity, it's real that the paper texture is still slightly lower where color is. If I need more texture, 3 solutions :
- Just paint more texture on the "Texture + light & shadow" layer : it's what I usually do, using the same texture brush that I use for painting my background parchments.
- If the map is totally painted/covered with color, just playing with contrast or levels, make the background itself more textured.
- You can also duplicate the background parchment and put it on the top of your layers (or just after the linework). Make it grayscale only, play with the levels and contrasts to strengthen the texture, put the layer on Overlay mode and then ajust the light of this layer to make it as close as possible to a 50% grey, which is the exact tone that don't 'burn' the picture with overlay mode. I let it at 100% here to show you, but a lower opacity would be better :
PaperTexture_by_MistyBeee.jpg

Fascinating study!
Way different than what I do.

I think I figured it out about 80%. Though, I just messed around for 10 minutes setting it up to emulate what I see you showed. (Thanx for adding the pictures. It really helped in ordering the whole attempt.

My print screen is not playing along for some weird reason. But, I will attach my quick attempt.
Emulation pic.jpeg

I can see that it gives a more saturated feel to all the colors, which is actually quite nice. Though, I will have to learn how to jump between changing the mask, disabling it and changing parts of the base color. Definitely new to me.

The texture layer above the base color, I'm not too sure I do it right, I lost some of the background texture, but anyway. I will figure it out. The last point on the grayscale added texture layer above on half opacity overlay is definitely a good one to remember, thanks!

Surely some getting use to the idea, but definitely a method for a specific style I will remember.

Thank you so much Misty. You are awesome. *High five*

[J.Edward]

Hmm... I think my approach is different. Maybe because I often work with watercolor, or because I always try to get inspiration from historic map makers and traditional techniques, instead of thinking about texture I think about transparency. My color layers are always low opacity, so don't hide the background textured layer : except rare case, it's the background which gives the texture to the whole map.
I made this for you : it's a simplified view of my current work on DarkSouls. The color itself is really quickly made to give a first idea of the color step to my client, so it's not perfect, but should illustrate our case here
ColorProcess_by_MistyBeee.jpg
Let's see, to read from bottom to top, as usual :

• Clean linework : as you can imagine, here are the dark lines from the linework ; 100% opacity, etc.
• Sketch : nothing useful here : just the blue lines from the first sketch
• Color folder :
  
  • Texture + light & shadow : As told before, it's a quickly made sampler so I was lazy here and put all on a single layer. With using the same chalk brush 50% opacity + pen pressure opacity, I suggested bricks, added some texture and, added light (coming from top right) just by picking the parchment color. The layer is 100% opacity, no effect, no color mode... just a few light brush strokes
  • Color base : This is just a fill layer>solid color + a mask ; any plain color 100% opacity do the job here. As you can see, this color layer is 100% opacity, but the 3th picture shows the mask which is painted with low opacity (here with a chalk brush 50% opacity + pen pressure opacity). A second pass with the same brush suggests the shadows (or shades ? I never know -_-). As it's low opacity, you can still see the paper texture below by transparency.
  • Opaque white square : This is just to help you see better the transparency of layers above
• Background : here is the parchment that is the support of the whole map : the "paper feel". I must confess it's not super textured, so not ideal for the demonstration ^^'

Now... even with low opacity, it's real that the paper texture is still slightly lower where color is. If I need more texture, 3 solutions :
- Just paint more texture on the "Texture + light & shadow" layer : it's what I usually do, using the same texture brush that I use for painting my background parchments.
- If the map is totally painted/covered with color, just playing with contrast or levels, make the background itself more textured.
- You can also duplicate the background parchment and put it on the top of your layers (or just after the linework). Make it grayscale only, play with the levels and contrasts to strengthen the texture, put the layer on Overlay mode and then ajust the light of this layer to make it as close as possible to a 50% grey, which is the exact tone that don't 'burn' the picture with overlay mode. I let it at 100% here to show you, but a lower opacity would be better :
PaperTexture_by_MistyBeee.jpg

That is neat. Also different from what I do but an interesting approach.