Question about Patreon

[Voolf]

Ok, i think i have figured it out.
I will explain the form in hope it will be helpful for others in the future.

Patreon W-8BEN form for non-USA person. (Certificate of Foreign Status of Beneficial Owner for United States Tax Withholding and Reporting).

1.Name of individual who is the beneficial owner (Required)
Nothing difficult here, just your full name

2. Country of citizenship (Required)
This may be tricky for people who live abroad (like me) and are resident of country A, but have citizenship of country B.
According to the "Instructions for Form W-8BEN" provided on the https://www.irs.gov/ (Internal Revenue Service) you have to type the country where you are a resident at the time of filling the form. Here is the quote

Line 2.
Enter your country of citizenship. If you are a dual citizen, enter the country where you are both a citizen and
a resident at the time you complete this form. If you are not a resident in any country in which you have citizenship, enter the country where you were most recently a resident. However, if you are a U. S. citizen, you should not complete this form even if you hold citizenship in another jurisdiction. Instead, provide Form W-9.

That means even if you are a citizen of country A you have to put the country where you are resident at the time you fill that form.

3. Permanent residence address (street, apt. or suite no., or rural route). (Required)
Self-explanatory

4. Mailing address (if different from above)
You fill this only if it is different from your residence address

5. U.S. taxpayer identification number (SSN or ITIN)
I am not certain about this. The official instructions for Form W-8BEN say that you have to get ITIN (individual taxpayer identification number) to get the benefits from incom tax treaties, but...

To claim certain treaty benefits, you must complete line 5 by submitting an SSN or ITIN, or line 6 by providing a foreign tax identification number (foreign TIN)

So that means i can skip line 5 if you fill line 6 which is

6. Foreign tax identification number (Required unless you provide Date of Birth in line 7)
It clearly states that you can again skip number 6, if you provide you date of birth in line 7, so i GUESS that is ok to skip both line 5 and 6, if you provide you date of birth...? right?

7. Date of birth (Month) (Required only if missing line 6)
So you have to fill this if you skipped line 6

And the most difficult

8. I certify that the beneficial owner is a resident of___________within the meaning of the income tax treaty between the United States and that country.
Fill in the blank the country you are resident

9. Special rates and conditions (if applicable—see instructions): The beneficial owner is claiming the provisions of Article
You have to find the treaty between USA and your country of residence and the article that provides the Withholding Tax Rates on Income benefits.
So here is the table for all treaties. What you have to do is to find the country you are living in and look under the Royalties > Copyrights (which i assume the art falls under). On the right there will be a number that represents a treaty article number and a citation. You just need to input the article number. So for example the treaty with Australia is the article 12, Poland is 13.

of the treaty identified on line 9 above to claim a
here you have tu put a % of the tax which is in the table under the Royalies > Copyrights. Examples Australia 5, Poland 10.

% rate of withholding on (specify type of income):
here you have to put the Income Code Number which is Royalties-12, Copyrights (again this data is taken from the table)

Explain the reasons the beneficial owner meets the terms of the treaty article:
You can write something like "Beneficial Owner is a resident of YOUR COUNTRY OF RESIDENCE, meeting the terms of the treaty under Article 4 (Residence)"

Please do not treat this as 100% accurate information. I am not a lawyer and have doubts myself about it. This is the best i could understand from gathered materials. I have send my form without filling line 5 and 6 and it seems to be alright... for now

[Mouse]

Good grief!

And I thought registering to self publish on Amazon was bad!

Its actually very similar form to this one.

Well, maybe Amazon is a bit worse than this, because on Amazon you can't get away with just providing your date of birth - you have to actually obtain this ITIN thing all by yourself, which has totally stumped me and caused me to lose interest in the idea of self publishing altogether. The UK government doesn't seem to know what I'm talking about when I ask them about it, and I've no wish to get all tangled up in accusations of tax evasion by mistake. You can go to prison for that kind of thing in the UK.

Good luck with it, Voolf - and thanks for the information

[Voolf]

Good grief!

And I thought registering to self publish on Amazon was bad!

Its actually very similar form to this one.

Well, maybe Amazon is a bit worse than this, because on Amazon you can't get away with just providing your date of birth - you have to actually obtain this ITIN thing all by yourself, which has totally stumped me and caused me to lose interest in the idea of self publishing altogether. The UK government doesn't seem to know what I'm talking about when I ask them about it, and I've no wish to get all tangled up in accusations of tax evasion by mistake. You can go to prison for that kind of thing in the UK.

Good luck with it, Voolf - and thanks for the information

Thanks Mouse !

It can be that i will actually have to obtain the ITIN after all, it is not clear from the form Patreon provided. It is like they just paste some lines that are requisite so nobody will hold them responsible, but you. I send a message to them asking for help, their respone was that they are not lawyers and can't help me with my problem LOL. It you make it possible for foreigners to use patreon you have to have someone who knows about that stuff, right ?

Would be nice if someone outside of US who earns money on Patreon could share some knowledge about whether ITIN is required.

[Mouse]

From my research on Amazon I discovered that its ok to register there and not have an ITIN. It just means that you get taxed twice - once in America, and once in your home country. The Americans take 30% emergency tax because you have no ITIN, and then in my situation the UK government would also take 30% of what was left to me after the American taxation. That means that without an ITIN I would get 47% of the amount donated to me - and all of that is after any kind of site charges are applied, just for being part of Patreon.

Since I'll never be a Da Vinci, I don't think its worth it in my case - unless someone can work out how to get this ITIN in the UK and reduce the taxation I would have to face.

EDIT: the other thing is that I'm pretty sure my UK friends and family wouldn't want to become patrons - knowing that over half of their donations were to be taken in tax and be of no benefit to me whatsoever.

Maybe I will just set up a website of my own

[Naima]

Wahts ITIN ?

[Voolf]

There is a guide on the IRS page how to aquire ITIN, but it is just a lot whole of trouble, you have to fill and send another form along with certified copy of your passport (to identify you) and a copy of a contract or a Letter from Mundane Press ? all of that just to use Patreon? If this is really required that means Parton is really unfriendly for foreigners and its just for USA citizens really.

[Voolf]

Wahts ITIN ?

individual taxpayer identification number

It is like U.S. TAX I.D. for foreigners to claim tax treaty benefit.

[Mouse]

There is a guide on the IRS page how to aquire ITIN, but it is just a lot whole of trouble, you have to fill and send another form along with certified copy of your passport (to identify you) and a copy of a contract or a Letter from Mundane Press ? all of that just to use Patreon? If this is really required that means Parton is really unfriendly for foreigners and its just for USA citizens really.

Just like Amazon, then.

There's a lot of it around...

[Voolf]

Just like Amazon, then.

There's a lot of it around...

We are doomed then....

Hey ILANTHAR!!! have you send form to get your ITIN number ?

[Mouse]

Looks like it, since I've no intention of ever sending even just a copy of my passport anywhere. Not for anyone or anything.

That's just asking for trouble - with all the lost post and ID fraud in the world these days.

I don't think they want our business, Voolf.

But never mind. We've got along without them so far