An interesting discussion topic...

[Pixie]

Onward and upward, in our mapping and stamp collecting!

I honestly love the positive message with a hint of irony...

... it's almost as if you were separating making maps from stamping forest and mountain symbols retrieved somewhere in the internet.... almost.

[ladiestorm]

lol Mark!!! Your posts always put a smile on my face, and most times give me a good laugh! I loved your post!

I also think your post hits on exactly what I was trying (and failing?) to say. Fantasy maps are just that... a cartograph of a fantastical, mythical, magical (or technological) place. They do not, and should not have any bearing on the real world around us. They are fictional... and there is no right or wrong way to create a piece of fantasy. So how could one critique something based in fantasy? There may be personal preferences, but no one can truly say that this fantasy map is wrong because of this, and that fantasy map is correct because of that. No one knows what was in the mind of the cartographer that created such maps. Maybe the gods of Middle Earth were hiding an artifact of profane power from Sauron in those boxy mountains. Maybe that river split is where a mythical race was buried during an ancient cataclysmic event. Maybe magic has has been so corrupted in this land that it affects everything around it, upsetting the balance of nature and turning it on it's side... making everything in that world go topsey turvey. And maybe it's the job of the reader (or the player) to discover why the 'rules' are broken in this or that fantasy map. And how can anyone critique a subject they know nothing about?

[ChickPea]

There was an article at tor.com which (I think) sparked all the recent discussion about fantasy geography. Well, the writer's put up a new post. River Police, polish up your badges...

https://www.tor.com/2017/10/10/tolki...-middle-earth/

Poor Tolkien's getting a kicking again.

[Mouse]

OMGoodness! ROFL!

Just for general information for anyone who fears to draw a river cutting through a band of mountains ever again because of that article - don't be afraid. If it troubles you greatly to draw something that might be ridiculed by such people, she happens to be wrong about rivers not cutting through mountains. A river can cut through anything as long as it cuts as fast as the land is rising.

This type of drainage system is called an antecedent drainage system, and I live half a mile away from one. The River Wey in Dorset cuts a normal dendritic pattern right through the heart of an eroded anticyncline at right angles to the line of the fold (an anticyncline is a gigantic 'ruck in the tablecloth' of the surface crust caused by plate movements deep below). So the river eroded itself a channel through the ruck faster than the ruck was rising

I also really don't know where all these pooh-paahing critics we have these days get their ideas that we all draw maps like Tolkien. That's like saying that all painters paint like Leonardo. She certainly likes her sweeping generalisations doesn't she!

[Straf]

There was an article at tor.com which (I think) sparked all the recent discussion about fantasy geography. Well, the writer's put up a new post. River Police, polish up your badges...

https://www.tor.com/2017/10/10/tolki...-middle-earth/

Poor Tolkien's getting a kicking again.

That's because he's too scared to pick on someone who's still alive.

[Redrobes]

I wonder if Tolkien with all of his knowledge of words, phrases and language construction, would look at this guys article text and point out all of the simplistic language construction and poor prose and limited vocabulary. Sure Middle Earth map has some odd - maybe terrible - geomorphology but it was a great book. When we did MeDem we attempted to make it hydrologically stable. Its hard because as he says Anduin flows a thousand miles and doesnt drop very much. Theres loads of stuff weird about that map. So tell me something I dont already know ! Tolkien stated himself that it was not meant to be a very accurate map. In any case the map is not Tolkiens as much as a rendition of Middle Earth as seen from the point of view of Bilbo. Its his map. And he didnt travel the whole realm with a Leica Theodolite.

In this episode we talk about hot rodding, engine efficiency and performance tuning. Now as an example I have here a Model T Ford and just look at the aerodynamics - Sheesh thats some poor design right there...

In next weeks article I take some depictions of people in the Bayeux Tapestry and show how, with a sensible digital format Hassleblad and studio setup we can take images of people with much improved quality. We have to ask ourselves, why did those medieval painters continue to pump out endless depictions of people with such poor realism and why do people still like looking at the Bayeux Tapestry...

[Diamond]

Wingshaw - check out some of Ian Irvine's series. His worlds are almost always southern-hemisphere, likely because he's an Aussie. Pretty good books though, especially this series:

https://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Glass-.../dp/1841490032

[ladiestorm]

lol... Redrobes, you took the words right out of my mouth in regards to Bilbo! In fact, I remember posting that exact same argument (the fact that the Middle Earth Map was made by the character Bilbo) in the first thread that dealt with this article writer... there is another post in regards to his article about Tolkien's mountains.

Of course, my main argument still remains. Tolkien's map (or Bilbo's map) is a work of FICTION, of FANTASY. It is not meant to be accurate. And to continue to hold works of fantasy up to logical standards is by it's very nature... illogical and ludicrous.

[Falconius]

There was an article at tor.com which (I think) sparked all the recent discussion about fantasy geography. Well, the writer's put up a new post. River Police, polish up your badges...

https://www.tor.com/2017/10/10/tolki...-middle-earth/

Poor Tolkien's getting a kicking again.

I agree with Mouse, the guy is really reaching this time. One just has to whip around on Google maps to see all sorts or rivers cutting across mountains. Or alternatively, flowing under them like they do in a major way in China.

I saw his point about the mountains because they have a deliberate artificial feel about them (I say deliberate because it seems obvious the mountains around Morodor are magically constructed in nature), but this time he is just wrong. I'm not sure why he believes Tolkien's map is some sort of super detailed relief map (nor where he is getting his height information). Or drainage map, or any other closely surveyed map he requires. It's an adventure map, merely a more specific map than an X marks the spot treasure map.

In this episode we talk about hot rodding, engine efficiency and performance tuning. Now as an example I have here a Model T Ford and just look at the aerodynamics - Sheesh thats some poor design right there...

I think that is the most astute point regarding that guy. Honestly I look at Tolkien's map and I see a map that really sticks to observable reality in a way most fantasy maps did not match for years following him. The only really odd mountains are the ones surrounding Morodor, and as I said, they are obviously deliberate in their oddness. Tolkien actually does follow the regular river rules, which is a pretty big achievement when you are the first guy making a map for your epic world. He obviously consulted with geographers about the map, and frankly the more I look at it, due to this guy, the more it grows on me.

[ChickPea]

I actually quite enjoyed the river article (and the one about mountains too). I get that it seems like ridiculous nitpicking to apply real world rules to a fantasy environment, but I also feel the author (who's female, btw) is doing it from a place of affection. Have you ever read a book that involves your profession or hobby, and you get slightly irked that they get things wrong? You find yourself thinking "If they'd just asked someone in the business how it works..." Or how about one of those movies where a guy hammers at a keyboard for five seconds and now he's hacked into a military database and has the nuclear launch codes. You know it's unrealistic, but if the story is compelling otherwise, you wave it off. The author's obviously spent a lot of time with Tolkien's works to come up with this stuff, and my sense is that she more wants to educate people, than disparage Tolkien (though, of course, YMMV).

My personal take on the fantasy vs reality question is that, whatever the geography is, if the story makes it work, it's good enough for me. Mostly, I love the world of Middle Earth and I enjoy reading new takes on it, even if those takes are mildly critical.