City map of Caragon

[Neyasha]

Caragon is inspired by various cities of the Imperium Romanum. The city is located on the mountainous island of Lidane, which is a client state of Cumea (the Rome of my fantasy world). One problem of the shown map: The city as depicted on this map is way too big. Realistic would be something like Carnuntum or Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium.

I did this map more than 10 years ago with quill pen and ink and it took me ages. So I was always frustrated when looking at it and thinking that the map is outdated and the whole concept of the city not very realistic. Some weeks ago I had the idea that the map was done by an "in-world" archeologist who got carried away (think of someone like Schliemann): He excavated parts of the city, mixed up different layers and filled the blank spaces of the map by guessing how the city could have looked like.
Since then there were more recent and accurate excavations and historians had to redo the whole map. Just like them I want to redo the city map. So if there is something you think looks odd/unrealistic beside the size please let me know! I would love to get some critic and input that I can consider when doing the new version of the map!

(I'm sorry the picture isn't the best - it was the best I could manage with my camera)

[arsheesh]

It's a very nice map. While historically cities supporting over 100,000 people were rare in ancient and medieval history, if this was intended for say a fantasy RPG it would not be at all out of place.

Did you intend to post this as a finished piece? If so let me know and I'll go ahead and move this over to the Finished Maps section.

EDIT: correction, I meant to say "100,000" not "10,000".

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

[arsheesh]

...or at least that's what I had thought based on some of the reading I've done. However I just did a quick search on typical urban sizes in the ancient and medieval periods and came up with this, which shows that larger cities were more common than I had suggested. So the size of this city might not even be an issue at all.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

[Neyasha]

Thanks a lot for your thoughts, arsheesh!

Did you intend to post this as a finished piece? If so let me know and I'll go ahead and move this over to the Finished Maps section.

To be honest I wasn't sure, but I consider it to be a working basis for a new version - so I think it fits better in this part of the forum.


I was looking at the size of historical cities and thought of 100,000-150,000 inhabitants when drawing this map. But the island Lidane is around 70,000 sqm big, has a lot of mountains (so agriculture is kind of a problem) and the climate is comparable to England or Wales. So I think it is not realistic to sustain a city that big. And I already had a much smaller city in my mind when I was writing my last novel.

[arsheesh]

Oh, I see where the problem lies, gotcha. OK well, look forward to seeing the new version.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

[Falconius]

I think it's a pretty nifty map. It'll be interesting to see how you'll revise it.

Since you asked us to be nitpicky though I'll give you my two cents. Water is not a wall, there is some recognition of this in the wall along the river, but that wall would've likely also continued to the southern wall, and blocked off the wharfs. I'd consider making the aqueducts (assuming that's what they are) more efficient in their lay out. For instance it's pretty weird for one to run just in front of the wall there. Considering they have a river right there and as far as I can tell the topography wouldn't make it difficult, there is a likelihood that the city would've made a moat that it could fill from the river, at least around the major side. Or at least a part of it, I just noticed the escarpment there. They would've put the wall along the top of it entirely, or built it farther back (and allowed room for a moat) it's too vulnerable otherwise. TO me there seems like there are double the amount of gates required for the eastern side, I think those could be reduced to 3 or 4 gates.

It sounds like you are thinking of editing the population? I'm not sure where this city is in it's history, but it takes a while for cities to become so dense inside the walls, many medieval maps you look at there are still farms and stuff inside the walls. The second thing is that with a city so dense unless it was very dangerous outside the wall there would be a little more settlement outside the walls in the cheaper land. If it was still dangerous there might be fortified outlying communities. It kind of depends on where it is in history, and how peaceable and lawful it is around.

[Arkidemis]

I like the map and the way you implemented what you see as a mistake into the storyline.

I'd expand on Falconius' thoughts. Redirecting the river into a moat around the city is a viable idea from how the terrain looks, if not I'd say the small island to the southwest would at the least have a completed moat if the building is of importance. I am unsure though what kind of building that is, so it may not make sense.

As for the size issue, perhaps bring some of the farms in the city and make the houses a little larger. Could place a few farmsteads outside the walls. This should make the city feel smaller without having too much over hauling.

I look forward to future versions of the map. You did an amazing job on what you have.

Hopefully

[darkseed2012]

Ancient Rome had nearly a million from what I've heard. The Romans had running water and sewers which allow for some huge cities. With a harbor like you have for that city, I doubt getting grain shipped in like Rome had to do would also work fine and this could be part of the economy as mountains would contain resources like metals which could be traded for grain, and other food stuffs. You can defend the harbor opening with two forts probably armed with ballistas. You would do the same at the other end where the river heads inland.

[Neyasha]

Thousand thanks for your comments and for being nitpicky. There are so many things I haven't considered until now and all your questions and suggestions are very helpful!

Water is not a wall, there is some recognition of this in the wall along the river, but that wall would've likely also continued to the southern wall, and blocked off the wharfs. I'd consider making the aqueducts (assuming that's what they are) more efficient in their lay out. For instance it's pretty weird for one to run just in front of the wall there. Considering they have a river right there and as far as I can tell the topography wouldn't make it difficult, there is a likelihood that the city would've made a moat that it could fill from the river, at least around the major side. Or at least a part of it, I just noticed the escarpment there. They would've put the wall along the top of it entirely, or built it farther back (and allowed room for a moat) it's too vulnerable otherwise. TO me there seems like there are double the amount of gates required for the eastern side, I think those could be reduced to 3 or 4 gates.

I will definitely make the aqueducts more efficient in the new version of the map. When I look at them now, I also think that their lay out is a bit ridiculous. And yes, there are too many gates and perhaps too many bridges in the north.
I have to admit that my knowledge of city defences is very limited and I'm very grateful for your input about the wall along the river!

It sounds like you are thinking of editing the population? I'm not sure where this city is in it's history, but it takes a while for cities to become so dense inside the walls, many medieval maps you look at there are still farms and stuff inside the walls. The second thing is that with a city so dense unless it was very dangerous outside the wall there would be a little more settlement outside the walls in the cheaper land. If it was still dangerous there might be fortified outlying communities. It kind of depends on where it is in history, and how peaceable and lawful it is around.

The city is around 800 years old. It had some rough history with civil war and two empires battling for the island. It has been peaceful for quiet some time now, so yes, there should be more settlement outside the walls.

I'd expand on Falconius' thoughts. Redirecting the river into a moat around the city is a viable idea from how the terrain looks, if not I'd say the small island to the southwest would at the least have a completed moat if the building is of importance. I am unsure though what kind of building that is, so it may not make sense.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts as well! Strategically the building on the small island has no importance. It is a big mausoleum for a former royal family - I was heavily inspired by Halikarnassos and the Mausoleo di Adriano (before it was rebuilt into a castle).

I'm so glad you like the map!

Ancient Rome had nearly a million from what I've heard. The Romans had running water and sewers which allow for some huge cities. With a harbor like you have for that city, I doubt getting grain shipped in like Rome had to do would also work fine and this could be part of the economy as mountains would contain resources like metals which could be traded for grain, and other food stuffs. You can defend the harbor opening with two forts probably armed with ballistas. You would do the same at the other end where the river heads inland.

I don't want to compare Caragon to Rome too much, as Rome was the center of an empire, while Caragon is just a trading town at the outskirts of an empire. When it comes to importance, I would compare it to Londinium or Carnuntum.
I will definitely have to give some thoughts to the defence of the harbour and the river.
Thank you for your comment and your thoughts!

[Neyasha]

I've made a concept for a new map and would be very grateful to hear your opinions and get some critic.

I've redone the city wall and played around with the moat but I'm not sure if it makes any sense.

There's only one aqueduct left and the lay out should be more efficient now.

I was also thinking of making the small peninsula into an insula but I'm not sure about it.

As for the population I limited the city to the eastern part. On the west side of the river there are farms and smaller settlements. Some centuries later that area became a part of the city - so my historian, who did the map, messed up the different time periods.

What do you think about it?