Other World Mapper (mapping software), feedback request and future changes

[OWM]

In evaluating a demo version, it's helpful if the user can look up information in the help file. I've tried it on 3 different Windows 10 Pro PCs but get only the fatal error message above.

Thank you for the feedback and for trying Other World Mapper! I'm not seeing that issue in our test PCs, but we'll investigate.

Meanwhile, the help document is a PDF file that you can find in the installation folder if you want to open it directly, typically: C:\Program Files (x86)\Three Minds Software\Other World Mapper Demo

Thank you!!

- Alejandro

[OWM]

Next batch of feedback from the edits we looked into . By the way, love the maps you've been making with Other World Mapper!!

These we'll be adding with the release coming out within a couple of weeks:

Control-A to select all text when you're in the typing option. Useful to delete if you mess up some part.

preview font from the font selection window.

When I draw part of a road and hit esc because I didn't want to keep it, it resets the tool. (Mac version)

It's driving me a lil batty that I can't click off canvas, or centre it (it's left justified if I work small) which was causing some trouble creating this coast shape as it overlaps both edges. I would have liked to be able to click off canvas to snap to the outside, perhaps.

Too close to regression testing to change this, but we'll change it with the version after.

I have one area where I drew and merged a couple of shapes and deleted some nodes I don't like, but the program gave me an error insisting the shape needed more than 3 nodes, even though I had merged the two shapes and it should have had sufficient nodes to handle.

Investigating, sounds like its complaining about the "drag" nodes rather than the actual path shape.

If you stick with the current color window. When you have the color window open on windows, go to advanced color, not limited color options by default. This extra window with the gimped color took me by surprise, especially since I can't save my own color pallet to it. Color eyedropper should be activated by default to grab from the art.

We're currently working on the a custom color picker/editor, right now we just bring up the OS's default.

Stroke on outside of text, not just inside.

Right now the stroke does both, in and out. Do you mean having them as two separate options like we do say for the closed area tool? Thank you!

Screen/linear dodge/multiply/linear burn glow options for outside text.

So basically blend modes for the shadow/glow?

Button to switch to all caps/no caps/small caps.

We'll try to add this, maybe as a shortcut so it doesn't add to the UI.

A button that temporarily switches the select tool, to the move tool, and returns to the select tool once released.

Good point, there is space to switch to the pan tool so it makes sense to momentarily switch to the transform tool too. Thank you!

When rotating an item near the edge of the canvas, the item has to be moved to get to the rotation icon. It should automatically rejigger to make sure that button stays on the visible canvas.

Good point, we'll fix.

I can only sometimes get the "click to follow" option to actually stick, and with fractal regions it isn't nearly sticky enough. I would like a keyboard shortcut to hold down that would automatically make my political border snap to the nearest river/coastline instead of having to click on the exact right pixel. This is made tricky by the fact that the box which tells you what it's going to stick to (if it works) sometimes blocks the area I need to see if the fractalization matched up enough to make it snap.

The click to follow should be working pretty well, but a snap shortcut makes a lot of sense! We'll also look into the "hint box" getting in the way - thank you!

[Tiana]

I have created a video demonstration of me making a fantasy island map exclusively in Other World Mapper. No tutorial text or talking over, just a 7700% faster screen capture of me using OWM to make up a map on the fly using its native tools. I've never done a video before, but it seemed like an appropriate first video to make, to demo a new program's capabilities. Actual working time is more like 5 hours (video is 5 minutes), which is still quite fast for this level of detail. I would have expected to spend more like 20-40 hours if I was illustrating something like this, on the low end if I was making my own assets and stamping them but nonetheless.

I have to say, while I have figured out how the click to follow works since my post, I still get a glitch with it where just as I go to click to connect it, it disconnects, puts a line across the whole section straight instead of following, and I have to undo and reset. This is potentially visible in the video a few times, though it does happen very fast.

Looks like videos are what everyone's doing these days, so I might do some more of these. It was kinda fun for me to watch a super fast version of the art unfold, so I could observe my process.

I have to say, while I have made several more notes in an email draft to you (so I stop cluttering the forum LOL), overall I think this program's been a gamechanger for me already. I've already used it to make a city road map for a book in half the time it would have taken me to do the lineart manually, and almost every edit I wanted to make was clean and smooth as a whistle (like I said, I made notes). Like I threw in a river, decided later I wanted river echo shorelines, realized 3/4s of the way in that there was an island in the middle of the stupid Tiber river, and didn't have to erase all of the echo shorelines and regenerate them, I just had to draw in an island and it rejiggered automatically. Astonishing. Or like, near the end of the Estavin map, I realized I wanted to have some jaggy island atoll bits making it a pain to boat through a certain region, and boom, added them in just like that and it regenerated the coast waves. Change the color of the rivers? No problemo. Chop a land region in half? Done!

Or like, now that I've figured out how the tool to add trees works, I love that I can cycle and randomly pick from the folder I'm in, and create sets like that. Really has high potential for creating regional sets. Some of my clients are meticulous enough to tell me what types of trees grow in an area, so now I can cluster trees from the central art management database instead of creating a whole new brush each time. While I do want there to be size and color jitter options to make it even more flexible, it is remarkably intuitive once you really dig into creating a map.

In so many ways, it behaves like I WISHED Photoshop could, and knew it never would. I can tell this program is a labor of love designed by people who really listened to the critique and desires of real humans who draw maps, not just a cash grab. And that's why, since the cost to purchase was so reasonable, I'm participating to give back in another way–building hype. I'm talking your program up, because I think it's the next best thing since "expand selection, stroke, expand selection, stroke." I wouldn't bother, except you charge such a reasonable price for it the least I can do is try get a few people excited about it. Let's kick those respective subscription model's arses! All hail reasonably priced programs from small studios!

[OWM]

I have created a video demonstration of me making a fantasy island map exclusively in Other World Mapper. No tutorial text or talking over, just a 7700% faster screen capture of me using OWM to make up a map on the fly using its native tools. I've never done a video before, but it seemed like an appropriate first video to make, to demo a new program's capabilities. Actual working time is more like 5 hours (video is 5 minutes), which is still quite fast for this level of detail. I would have expected to spend more like 20-40 hours if I was illustrating something like this, on the low end if I was making my own assets and stamping them but nonetheless.

Video is perfect! We've been wanting to do a timelapse video like that, but with your mapping skills it looks awesome!

I have to say, while I have figured out how the click to follow works since my post, I still get a glitch with it where just as I go to click to connect it, it disconnects, puts a line across the whole section straight instead of following, and I have to undo and reset. This is potentially visible in the video a few times, though it does happen very fast.

Glad you were able to get it to mostly work. We'll look into the glitch, after the current release is out the "follow" is one of the things we were going to re-visit and add more functionality too.

while I have made several more notes in an email draft to you (so I stop cluttering the forum LOL),

Please do and send us an email when you are ready. Love the feedback and getting as much of it as we can into OWM.

Or like, now that I've figured out how the tool to add trees works, I love that I can cycle and randomly pick from the folder I'm in, and create sets like that. Really has high potential for creating regional sets. Some of my clients are meticulous enough to tell me what types of trees grow in an area, so now I can cluster trees from the central art management database instead of creating a whole new brush each time. While I do want there to be size and color jitter options to make it even more flexible, it is remarkably intuitive once you really dig into creating a map.

We were able to sneak in color blend modes and opacity for colorization of features with the upcoming release (just add, multi, and alpha - but still better), so we should be able to add more randomization options with the release after, including color and scale.

In so many ways, it behaves like I WISHED Photoshop could, and knew it never would. I can tell this program is a labor of love designed by people who really listened to the critique and desires of real humans who draw maps, not just a cash grab. And that's why, since the cost to purchase was so reasonable, I'm participating to give back in another way–building hype. I'm talking your program up, because I think it's the next best thing since "expand selection, stroke, expand selection, stroke." I wouldn't bother, except you charge such a reasonable price for it the least I can do is try get a few people excited about it. Let's kick those respective subscription model's arses! All hail reasonably priced programs from small studios!

Thank you!!! And yeah, I really dislike subscription model for software and I'm not particularly happy with DRM software either, hence our one time purchase, DRM free commitment.

[Mark Oliva]

Our project group has run OWM through the paces in tests with the demo version. Conclusions:

1) Compared with other 32-bit cartographic applications, it's impressive.

2) However, it's not a program that we would consider using. Just like CC3+, Dundjinni, MapForge etc., we consider the software to be obsolete. Our PCs all have 32 to 64 GB memory and have been running 64-bit operating systems for more than a decade. OWM, like the other programs I mentioned, allows us to use only 4GB of that memory and also denies us the use of many other advantages of the operating system. This would have been a great entry 15 years ago. We'll skip it.

[Tiana]

I'll try do some more video recordings since it gives a way to actually look back and see what was going on when I glitched. I determined one of the things is that, I click outside of the canvas when creating a shape of some sort, and would like it to stick there instead of then following me when I move my hand and click somewhere else, creating a point on the closest part of the canvas.

I look forward to seeing what the new release will be like and definitely understand you can't apply all the feedback immediately.

Our PCs all have 32 to 64 GB memory and have been running 64-bit operating systems for more than a decade.

Dayum. I didn't even know it was possible to get a computer with 64gb RAM. You're obviously on the cutting edge and investing a serious amount of cash into your setup in that case (presumably as a publisher doing intense digital work it made sense and was a business expense?) and I doubt there's going to be many people here who can match your machine for power. I just got Windows 10 this year, and 16 gigs of RAM. You're definitely on the upper end of the bell curve, probably somewhere a bit below "Disney's rendering power" and "military computers".

I appreciate that the program uses a minimal amount of RAM while performing as powerfully as it does, and I believe many other average computer users will feel the same way. There are tons of people using laptops with 4-8gb because they never put their machine through rigorous artistic tasks who still might want to make a map, so putting its performance right in the realm of "average joe" makes a lot of sense to me. I can see why that would make it no good for your team though, and it looks like you do more of a 3D sort of art style so it makes sense why you'd want more RAM.

I wouldn't mind tapping into more of my RAM but I never had any moments where I felt the program was moving slower than I could think.

Edit: Ran it through a 20x30 map last night and definitely started seeing performance hangups at that size.

[Mark Oliva]

I didn't even know it was possible to get a computer with 64gb RAM. You're obviously on the cutting edge and investing a serious amount of cash into your setup in that case

Actually, I think you'll find a number of people here with 32 GB RAM. 64 GB wouldn't be all that rare either.

presumably as a publisher doing intense digital work it made sense and was a business expense

I'm retired. The Vintyri (TM) Project is a non-profit. We produce free, open-source, open gaming material. We are not a business and do no business. But we probably will release a beta soon that will substantially expand OWM's mapping possibilities, if it runs correctly. The alpha version already appears to do so.

I appreciate that the program uses a minimal amount of RAM while performing as powerfully as it does, and I believe many other average computer users will feel the same way. There are tons of people using laptops with 4-8gb because they never put their machine through rigorous artistic tasks who still might want to make a map, so putting its performance right in the realm of "average joe" makes a lot of sense to me.

Actually, I think this kind of misses the point. I'd never suggest that OWM be programmed to need 32 or 64 GB RAM. I don't know why anyone would suggest that. But I do want my programs to be able to use the RAM that I have when they need it, which can be the case with some huge maps that have a large graphical content.

it looks like you do more of a 3D sort of art styl

We do no 3D, but we do use what's called a photorealistic style by some, although true photorealism really is somewhat more and somewhat different.

Ran it through a 20x30 map last night and definitely started seeing performance hangups at that size.

Uh ... 20 x 30 what?

Servus,

[Tiana]

Uh ... 20 x 30 what?

Uhm, sorry, I grid most of my work in inches and assumed it was easy enough to infer. On the topic of inference, I assumed your title of "publisher" and your swanky realistic looking maps meant you were a professional map publisher. I now assume it must have been the automatic title generated by the forum for a certain post count.

Yes, I was a bit confused as to why you would want a program to intentionally use up all of your available RAM, I believe I understand better now what your problem is. For the record, I installed in the Administrator account, and do not seem to be experiencing the same bug. i'm only seeing the program slow down because y'know, I loaded up that map with a LOT of things and it's poster sized.

Ya blew my mind, that's all. It is the logical progress, I just thought 32 was where we were at for the top end civilian personal computer. Nothing wrong with us having had different experiences lead to different conclusions. Many in your sphere may have beefy systems. That's cool, I don't discount that. Even though a remarkable number of people I know are professional artists in some fashion, they are all mostly younger poor people or non-computer-passionate older professional artists who include computers only as an incidental side part of their art. I don't know very many people who are retired and they would be people who have a "the computer for Facebook". If your people group are the people who picked up on computers as they started growing in popularity and just rode the train of improvements forward, naturally following their growth it would make sense higher end equipment would be more familiar to you than me. Like I can think of one guy I know who might have equipment hanging around like that, a serious video editor and audiophile. Wouldn't be surprised. He seems to have the cutting edge stuff. Winnipeggers are notoriously cheap, so yeah...

Recently I had a discussion with my programmer housemate about how much RAM I should have in the new computer. Her opinion on the matter was that most computer use wouldn't require 32 gigs except for intense 3D work and we got 16 and beefed up other aspects instead.

I look forward to having more RAM now that I know it exists, and is not ridiculous to want for the art I do. Now I have reason to aim higher. As well, I look forward to what the Vintyri project ends up bringing to OWM. If your maps are made out of your project Alpha then it will be a good expansion.

Interesting about your style, I initially thought by looking at your portfolio it used some sort of 3D rendering to get the semi-realistic style. Is it maybe what would be called "Photo bashing"? That's an art form that's not exactly photo editing, but turning photos into tools to create a new piece of art or extensively painting over it in some way so that the original photo/s is/are completely unrecognizable. It's obvious to me it's not intended to be completely photorealistic, but photo-evokative?

Love that what you're doing is free and open source, that's amazing for the community, what a sweet way to spend your retirement.

I should note I also observed there was an OWM forum but it looked sort of dead, heh, so I didn't join it, sorry.



Oh yeah, to save presets for things like river and road styles. The official explanation Alexandro just posted confused me so I figured I'd provide a visual aid. Just have the tool set up however you want it and click this button and it will bring up the window to save it. This toolbar is by default located on the right side of the monitor, but may be triggered off, in which case you'd pull it up from settings, windows, properties. I circled the button to click in red. It kind of slides into the UI for me if I don't intentionally look for it, something about how it engages with the monitor static. Also it kind of seems decorative too. I think it could be made more obvious.

[Mark Oliva]

I assumed your title of "publisher" and your swanky realistic looking maps meant you were a professional map publisher. I now assume it must have been the automatic title generated by the forum for a certain post count.

No, it's because we're publishers. We just publish non-commercially, and we've published more RPG publications than a number of commercial publishers. Our download statistics and support request volume suggest that we have a good user base.

people I know are professional artists in some fashion, they are all mostly younger poor people or non-computer-passionate older professional artists who include computers only as an incidental side part of their art.

It depends what kind of artist you mean. Commercial artists in the graphics business who do a lot of work with Photoshop, for instance, have and need pretty beefy computers.

I don't know very many people who are retired and they would be people who have a "the computer for Facebook".

I avoid Facebook and co. like the black plague. My partners Carl and Trevor also stay far away from it.

If your people group are the people who picked up on computers as they started growing in popularity and just rode the train of improvements forward, naturally following their growth it would make sense higher end equipment would be more familiar to you than me.

After years as a newspaper reporter and editor in the U.S., I switched to computer programming after moving here to Bavaria and started my own software company. I also taught computer programming in a school. My motivation for having a power computer is my absolute dislike of having to wait more than 5 seconds for anything. The computers that I have give me that luxury.

Recently I had a discussion with my programmer housemate about how much RAM I should have in the new computer. Her opinion on the matter was that most computer use wouldn't require 32 gigs except for intense 3D work and we got 16 and beefed up other aspects instead.

That probably was good advice.

I look forward to having more RAM now that I know it exists, and is not ridiculous to want for the art I do.

If you're using an ordinary hard disk on your computer, a better first investment would be in an SSD drive for Windows, your most-used programs and your frequently-opened graphics and data.

look forward to what the Vintyri project ends up bringing to OWM.

The instructions haven't been written yet, but here's the first alpha:

https://www.vintyri.org/downloads/vcc_owm_alpha1.zip (490 MB)

Download it, unzip it and run Setup.exe. Install it into:

(Install drive and location)\Three Minds Software\Other World Mapper

If you used the default installation location, that's:

C:\Programs (x86)\Three Minds Software\Other World Mapper

Is it maybe what would be called "Photo bashing"? That's an art form that's not exactly photo editing, but turning photos into tools to create a new piece of art or extensively painting over it in some way so that the original photo/s is/are completely unrecognizable.

That's about right for many of the objects.

Servus,

[OWM]

Our project group has run OWM through the paces in tests with the demo version. Conclusions:

1) Compared with other 32-bit cartographic applications, it's impressive.

2) However, it's not a program that we would consider using. Just like CC3+, Dundjinni, MapForge etc., we consider the software to be obsolete. Our PCs all have 32 to 64 GB memory and have been running 64-bit operating systems for more than a decade. OWM, like the other programs I mentioned, allows us to use only 4GB of that memory and also denies us the use of many other advantages of the operating system. This would have been a great entry 15 years ago. We'll skip it.

Thank you so much for the comments and feedback!

Other World Mapper is a 64 bit application (the Installer will install a 32 version if your system is 32 bits), so I'm not sure what you mean with saying it only allows 4GB of RAM use? Also not sure what other operating system advantages it denies use? Let us know so we can look into it!

The only limitation is maps right now can't be larger than 20000 x 20000 pixels, which is something that will be removed later this year.

Thank you!