Reply With QuoteHow do you know your logic is more reliable than the model? By what standard are you comparing them?Originally Posted by Naima
Peter, send me the error you're getting and you're topography map
As said before I am not expert of exoplasim , but according to my studies on the climatics, although I am more focused on terrain like environment, what doesn't convince me are the deserts and dryeness of the coastlines on equator level, which in my opinion are wrong and would be mitigated always by moisture of the sea even if no precipitation, and if the winds are then it would extend more inland too and if there are no major mountain blockers penetrate even more deep, sure doesn't mean it would be a lush forest maybe but not a necessarly a sandy desert, may be more of a savannah.
Last edited by Naima; 03-28-2024 at 03:33 AM.
How do you know your logic is more reliable than the model? By what standard are you comparing them?
Peter, send me the error you're getting and you're topography map
Somlia and Peru both have near-equatorial deserts, though if i'm understanding Peter here the koppen map shown here isn't taken from exoplasim
due to height and anyway the Somalian desertis east oriented so doen't get the equatorial current straight into land.
I do not say is more reliable , I meant its a too much effort making it work and extracting data that can still be questionable and subject to error so that in my opinion can be better and faster extrapolated by applying some climatology knowledge and logic .
Of course if you mess with Alien planets with different pressure , gravity , air composition , solar radiance then its all about more of a mess and hardly can be done manually but , even modern computers struggle to make serious predictions on climates that are a complex dynamic system.
Last edited by Naima; 03-28-2024 at 10:31 AM.
Double post.
Last edited by Naima; 03-28-2024 at 10:24 AM.
This seems like a fun concept! I have played around with gravity as a more prominent component in a world building setting, but I've always limited it to artificial space habitats and not a planetary setting. The ecology on your planet must be crazy diverse between the latitudes. I'll be following this if you post more updates!
First of all, I believe Naima is at least partially correct about my desert placement: I was definitely being much too crude and careless when drawing my Koppen map, and as a result overlooked an important detail regarding equatorial precipitation patterns. The Hadley cell, although much narrower here, circulates air counter to the planet's rotation, much like on the Earth. However, during perihelion when the land is hotter than the ocean, a sea breeze brings warm moist air against the Hadley cell circulation, enabling a small patch of savannah to exist on the west coast of equatorial continents. All other climate zones will depend on the other circulation cells and their direction of circulation.
To answer worldbuilding pasta's question, this map WAS extrapolated from a koppenpasta output of the Earth's resulting climate, assuming my world's parameters but a default Earth topography. I chose this option because ExoPlaSim was producing unfavourable results with my "Frodo topography;" suffice it to say, the program's temperature simulations were coming out much too cold. Since I couldn't troubleshoot this error, I'm including the script and Frodo topo map for you. (Max altitude, by the way, is 7130 metres).
The koppenpasta output:
The Frodo topo map:
To improve my rendering of climates, I've drawn a rough precipitation map to indicate the distribution of moisture on Frodo, using an ExoPlaSim output of the Earth with Frodo parameters. Very crudely, the darkest blues represent a rainfall value of about 7 x 10^-8 m/s; the lighest blues, 7 x 10^-9 m/s. If this exact level of rainfall would fall for an Earth year, it would amount from 2.2 metres (darkest blues) to 0.2 metres (lightest blues). These roughly correspond to rainforests vs. deserts. I basically used info from worldbuilding pasta to calculate the size of each circulation cell in my planet's atmosphere; then, after determining the direction of circulation, I placed moisture zones on all coasts downwind of an ocean. The ovals represent anticyclones (high pressure), which only move about 4 degrees throughout the year due to the planet's low obliquity.
Personally, I don't trust my brain when engaging in complex tasks such as determining a planet's climate, especially for non-Earthlike worlds. I am functioning with a damaged basal ganglia and severe demyelination, meaning I can't rapidly process information and frequently suffer "brain lock." As a result, my numerical/verbal abilities are impaired; however, when I have time to rehearse and prepare the information (like now), my accuracy tends to be above average and the apparent impairment can disappear. When conworlding and deciding climate, I prefer to use at least two different methods to calculate temperatures: ExoPlaSim, Clima-Sim, worldbuilding pasta's spreadsheet, as well as my own. I figure that with a general agreement between different simulators, I am confident that I'm encroaching on the sought-out solution(s) to the problem.
Thank you again for all your critiques and worldbuilding wisdom. If there's anything else you need (worldbuilding pasta) to troubleshoot my error, please feel free to ask.
Peter
If you want to add another I think sometime ago I found a climatic simulator that was easy and crude and not up to the complexities of the others but could be worth a look,First of all, I believe Naima is at least partially correct about my desert placement: I was definitely being much too crude and careless when drawing my Koppen map, and as a result overlooked an important detail regarding equatorial precipitation patterns. The Hadley cell, although much narrower here, circulates air counter to the planet's rotation, much like on the Earth. However, during perihelion when the land is hotter than the ocean, a sea breeze brings warm moist air against the Hadley cell circulation, enabling a small patch of savannah to exist on the west coast of equatorial continents. All other climate zones will depend on the other circulation cells and their direction of circulation.
To answer worldbuilding pasta's question, this map WAS extrapolated from a koppenpasta output of the Earth's resulting climate, assuming my world's parameters but a default Earth topography. I chose this option because ExoPlaSim was producing unfavourable results with my "Frodo topography;" suffice it to say, the program's temperature simulations were coming out much too cold. Since I couldn't troubleshoot this error, I'm including the script and Frodo topo map for you. (Max altitude, by the way, is 7130 metres).
The koppenpasta output:
The Frodo topo map:
To improve my rendering of climates, I've drawn a rough precipitation map to indicate the distribution of moisture on Frodo, using an ExoPlaSim output of the Earth with Frodo parameters. Very crudely, the darkest blues represent a rainfall value of about 7 x 10^-8 m/s; the lighest blues, 7 x 10^-9 m/s. If this exact level of rainfall would fall for an Earth year, it would amount from 2.2 metres (darkest blues) to 0.2 metres (lightest blues). These roughly correspond to rainforests vs. deserts. I basically used info from worldbuilding pasta to calculate the size of each circulation cell in my planet's atmosphere; then, after determining the direction of circulation, I placed moisture zones on all coasts downwind of an ocean. The ovals represent anticyclones (high pressure), which only move about 4 degrees throughout the year due to the planet's low obliquity.
Personally, I don't trust my brain when engaging in complex tasks such as determining a planet's climate, especially for non-Earthlike worlds. I am functioning with a damaged basal ganglia and severe demyelination, meaning I can't rapidly process information and frequently suffer "brain lock." As a result, my numerical/verbal abilities are impaired; however, when I have time to rehearse and prepare the information (like now), my accuracy tends to be above average and the apparent impairment can disappear. When conworlding and deciding climate, I prefer to use at least two different methods to calculate temperatures: ExoPlaSim, Clima-Sim, worldbuilding pasta's spreadsheet, as well as my own. I figure that with a general agreement between different simulators, I am confident that I'm encroaching on the sought-out solution(s) to the problem.
Thank you again for all your critiques and worldbuilding wisdom. If there's anything else you need (worldbuilding pasta) to troubleshoot my error, please feel free to ask.
Peter
https://software-oasis.com/oasis/#
For the reference, I do not totally neglect the presence of Deserts on coasts, but mostly of large deserts, also depends on presence of cold currents and moisture next to coast on the ITCZ movements, I personally been in Western Sahar south of Morocco coast near Daklha and there is a Dunelike landscape on coasts, which is pretty cool and so yes a desert on coast but with limited size.
If it's just coming out too cold, that's not altogether surprising, messing around with multiple parameters can be unpredictable in that way. Either double the CO2 value or increase stellar flux by, say, 5% and try that out, and if necessary keep doing that until you get to at an average temp of least 10 C after 10 years into the simulation, then you can keep tweaking for more precise temperatures. I also have an example of a script here that will automatically adjust CO2 to get to within 1 C of a desired average temp, but it can take a while to run https://gist.github.com/hersfeldtn/f...645dfe759effd5
I've run across OASIS in the past, it's worth keeping an eye on but it doesn't really have anything ready for public use so far
Thank you Naima and worldbuilding pasta for your continued assistance,
Yes, it seems I've totally neglected ocean currents when defining my global moisture patterns. I do believe this would change things to a noticeable degree, so I'll add that task to my to do list.
For now, I've been tinkering with ExoPlaSim using worldbuilding pasta's suggestion, to increase the stellar flux. I opted not to increase CO2 as I desired a naturally low value, considering that over 10,000 ppm of CO2 might cause drowsiness for humans. The last thing I want to do is to subject my characters to any more torture, considering they are already braving high gravities and bitterly cold temperatures.
To derive the necessary semimajor axis I needed for a 28-degree temperature increase, I naively assumed this formula applied:
T[planet] = T[star]*((R[star]^2 * (1-A)) / (4*SMA^2))^0.25
I simply did the algebra to immediately derive the necessary SMA, then proceeded to calculate the insolation and year length assuming this new SMA value. When I ran the simulation, however, my hottest temperature skyrocketed to 93 Celsius just after perihelion!
Persevering, I chose an "in between" value for the insolation, assuming a linear scaling of temperatures, then I reran the simulation on ExoPlaSim.
Unfortunately, although the perihelion temperatures turned out satisfactory, the program calculated an aphelion equatorial temperature of -19 Celsius (second image below), which is over 25 degrees colder than the initial simulation with the original parameters and a default Earthlike topography.
Thus, I'm led to believe that simply bringing the planet closer to its sun won't produce the equivalent effect of properly specifying the topography files created by Image2sra_2.0.3. I believe therein lies the problem. So I ran the Image2sra with the debug option selected, and received this error message:
Would you like this script to produce debug images? (y/n): y
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "Image2sra_2.0.3.py", line 154, in <module>
img = img.transpose(Image.Transpose.ROTATE_90)
AttributeError: module 'PIL.Image' has no attribute 'Transpose'
Could this error be responsible for the mismatch in my temperature gradients? And if so, how could I rectify this issue?
By the way, Naima, I checked out the link you provided, and I am impressed! Once I've mastered ExoPlaSim, I intend to venture into the field of rendering even more unEarthlike worlds. However, as worldbuilding pasta has commented, some of the simulation tools are not yet avaialble.
At any rate, thank you all for your interest in this project.
Peter
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